Am 12.06.2023 wurde ein Interview mit Markus Haintz auf "Marianna in Conspiracyland" (BBC4) veröffentlich:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001n1p8Haintz wird nur Markus genannt, aber man kennt seine Stimme und er wird auch Anwalt genannt.
Jedenfalls wird der Zoff mit Anselm Lenz und seinem "Demokratischen Widerstand" benannt, wo Haintz sagt, dass er seinen guten Namen nicht für so ein extremistisches Blatt hergeben mochte und dann dort als Schreiber ausgestiegen ist.
Außerdem war der Markus schon in der Schule jemand, der
rumgestänkert aufgestanden ist. Halt der übliche Müll, Haintz verkauft sich ganz gut in der Episode. Sein Engagement für die AfD wird elegant umschifft, obwohl ich es nicht mehr genau weiß, ab wann er sich dieser Richtung, die natürlich nicht rechtsextrem ist, angeschlossen hat.
Was aber noch interessant ist: Haintz behauptet, dass in den Covid-Szene russisches Geld für Desinformation geflossen ist bzw. es angeboten wurde. Die genaue Verbindung zum "Demokratischer Widerstand" bleibt offen.
Hier ist das Transkript mit Sprechererkennung (funktioniert nicht immer, aber ich bekomme das aktuell nicht besser aus meiner Software raus):
Spoiler
Speaker 1
BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.
Speaker 2
You cannot ask the question, is it okay to get a death penalty for those who made this COVID measures? What are you doing? I cannot give my name for that newspaper anymore.
Speaker 1
This is Markus. He's talking about a conspiracy theory newspaper in Berlin, one that we know the light paper in the UK is in contact with. Markus used to be a columnist at the German paper called Democratic Resistance. Now he's contacted me because he's worried about the direction the paper and its editor are taking.
Speaker 2
Do you think he is an extremist? His wording is at the moment the wording of an extremist, yes. And how would you define an extremist? Everyone who brings people in a position where they at least could think about getting violent.
Speaker 1
But Markus' opposition ist nicht straightforward. There are some aspects of the wider conspiracy theory movement that Markus still wants to defend.
Speaker 2
The problem is I don't like this term conspiracy theory because it's psychological warfare and that's my problem with big parts of mainstream media. You have to one story and I have to raise my voice against this.
Speaker 1
So what can insiders tell me about the German movement the paper there and how this all links to the Ich bin Mariana Spring, der BBC's Disinformation und Social Media Correspondent. Und in diesem Podcast-Series, ich versuche in eine Conspiracyland, eine Realität, die mir immer mehr überlebt. Ich bin investigatet der conspiracy more radical. At the extreme end, we've seen conspiracy theory-driven riots at the US Capitol and a coup attempt foiled in Germany. But what's happening in the UK? I have plenty of time to look about and wonder. What is going to happen next? For BBC Radio 4, this is Mariana in Conspiracyland.
Speaker 3
I meet
Speaker 1
Markus in a radio and music studio in downtown Berlin. He's dressed smartly in a light blue shirt. A lawyer and now an activist, he was energised by the issues thrown up during the pandemic, opposing the then possible introduction of mandatory vaccinations and lockdown restrictions. Have you always been someone that stands up for things, that raises your voice? In der Schule, ich habe das, ich
Speaker 2
nicht gerne, ich habe das, ich hatte es. Ich wirklich, wirklich hatte es. Aber ich war immer jemand, der aus dem Geist.
Speaker 1
So Markus begann zu attendern Anti-Lockdown Rallies, first across Germany, and then in Spain, Italy, Austria, and Belgium. It was a summer's day in 2020 when he met the editor of the conspiracy theory newspaper that had started in Germany.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I met Ansem Lenz, who is the face of this paper, in July 4th in Ulm on a big protest.
Speaker 1
The paper is called Demokratische Widerstand, the Democratic Resistance.
Speaker 2
We did an interview on the stage and at that time it was, I think, a good newspaper. So the language, it was loud and clear, but it was not radical or extremist or something like else. So six months later, in January 2021, I started the column there.
Speaker 1
Markus'
Speaker 2
weekly column for the German
Speaker 1
paper mainly criticized lockdown measures and vaccine policy. The paper, like the light, has a mixture of articles, some mundane, but others featuring disinformation and conspiracy theories. Who were the other people working there? Were they like you, like lawyers, doctors? What kinds of people have been writing for the paper?
Speaker 2
Yeah, several lawyers, some professors, journalists, also good journalists, not people who are doing this for half a year, doing this for 20, 40 years, yeah, professionals. And activists, yeah, and a lot of people from the movement, yeah. Some with really good name in the public.
Speaker 1
On Telegram, the German paper refers to the light as its partner paper and talks about its colleagues at the publication, everything seems to inhabit the same universe. Markus tells me how these conspiracy theory papers connect from the UK to Germany.
Speaker 2
That's normal. You're doing it at the same job, and if you have a newspaper in Great Britain and you have one in Germany, then normally at one time you see each other and you talk to each other.
Speaker 1
It was in the autumn of 2022, Roughly 18 months after he'd started writing for the paper, the marker said things began to change. Even though many of the lockdown restrictions had been lifted by then, marker says the paper and the Telegram channel it runs began to ramp up its messaging.
Speaker 2
The newspaper went more radical. And there were some polls in the Telegram channel. And after several posts where I said, OK, that's not good. You cannot ask the question, is it okay to beat people wearing masks? And the leader is, is it okay to get a death penalty for those who made this COVID measures? What are you doing?
Speaker 1
Markus decided he didn't want to write for the paper anymore. And he couldn't understand why others didn't take more of a stand too. For me,
Speaker 2
the biggest problem is that the people who
Speaker 1
write in this
Speaker 2
newspaper
Speaker 1
do not say anything about it.
Speaker 2
I don't
Speaker 1
understand it. So they won't disavow it? Ja,
Speaker 2
some of them should say, okay, I'm a lawyer, I'm a doctor, I'm a journalist, I'm a professor. I cannot give my name for that newspaper anymore. You cannot say, okay, on Twitter I'm nice, and on Telegram I say, kill them all. This does not work. And then you have to say, okay, stop, I won't give my name for that newspaper.
Speaker 1
Just before Markus stopped writing for the paper, he noticed the violent rhetoric was accompanied by something else, too. a flag of the Second Reich.
Speaker 2
The Demokratische Widerstand, the Democratic Resistance, has an email newsletter, I think with 45,000 people. They posted a black, white, red flag, which is the flag of the Second German Reich from 1871 till 1918. So it has nothing to do with the Third Reich and Adolf Hitler, but the so-called Reichsbürger, they use this a lot. And then I said, what are you doing? Why? Why are you begging for this framing of the mainstream media?
Speaker 1
Markus was unsure why the paper decided to feature the flag on its newsletter. As he says, it's one associated with that Reichsburger group. They think the current German state is illegitimate. Markus, and another whistleblower I've spoken to, suggest there's a link between the Democratic Resistance paper and the Reichsburger. According to them, writers from the paper and one of its key donors met with members of the group. Some of the members of the Reichsburger that they met were later arrested and charged over an alleged coup attempt in the country in December 2022.
Speaker 4
25 people have been arrested in Germany on suspicion of being involved in a plot to overthrow the government. 3,000 police were involved in raids on several properties right across the country. In den Zeitpunkt, die Mitgliedschaftsleuthen wurden zu
Speaker 1
kür Was macht Markus, der
Speaker 2
Papier
Speaker 1
And how would
Speaker 2
you define an extremist? Everyone who brings people in a position where they at least could think about getting violent.
Speaker 1
Markus is convinced that the risk of harm offline from this motivated minority is low and that the coup attempt would never have worked. But the other whistleblower I've spoken to, who stopped writing for the paper back in 2021, is more concerned about a one-off act of violence. He says the paper is creating an atmosphere that is hateful and divided. Er ist er, dass jemand, der sich emotional oder unbefalt
Speaker 2
Unfortunately, there is a lot of, I'm not sure, but there is some hatred against the mainstream media. It's not good to attack journalists. It's not good to attack the other side.
Speaker 1
He's exhausted by the idea they need to be tried and punished for supposed crimes against humanity.
Speaker 2
This whole Nürnberg 2.0 bullshit, sorry for saying this loud and clear, I cannot hear it anymore. And I met with a lot of people from all over the world, in the United States, in New Zealand, in Australia. It's very normal for parts of the movement to say this, we need Nuremberg 2.0. And I said, guys, no, you don't know what this means. You cannot compare this. But while he is denouncing
Speaker 1
the paper, Marcus is still somewhat part of the wider conspiracy theory movement. Er ist auch seine Telegram-Kanell und seine Welt-Würfe ist klar, wenn ich mit ihm spreche. Do you think in den movementen jetzt, dass es ein Muddling von legitimateen Fragen oder Fragen oder Fähigkeiten haben, mit mehr
Speaker 2
extre 20 Jahre später, the conspiracy theories are true. Like Iraq war. There were no weapons of mass destruction. If we would have this interview in 2005, then I would be a conspiracy theorist. 20 Jahre later, the people were right. George Bush used this to make a war, which killed a lot of people. That's my problem with big parts of mainstream media. You have the one story. You try to frame people. If somebody has another opinion, it's very easy to say it's a conspiracy theory. Our Western society is always good, and the others are always bad. I think the truth is something in the middle. But the problem is I don't like this term conspiracy theory because it's psychological warfare, and it does not help.
Speaker 1
Because he's still on the inside and connected to various key people, there's more he can tell me. Markus says Kremlin-linked figures in Russia have offered money to members of the wider conspiracy theory movement in Germany so that they continue to push divisive and pro-Russian disinformation. The people who have become more extreme or hateful or, you know, what's the solution? Is there a way of bringing them back so that's not how they approach this?
Speaker 2
Some people you won't bring back, But as long as they don't get violent, they play another big role. The solution has to be bringing ordinary people to a point where they can't speak to each other. We're living in a society where normally only people speak to each other with the same opinion. And that's the problem.
Speaker 1
I tried to reach out to the paper's editor, Anselm Lenz, and to do an interview with him, but he refused. In his email response, he said I was a highly paid NATO and BBC propagandist and said I was a threat to him and his family. He also accused me of slander of our friends of the Great English Democratic Movement. Marcus was willing to go further than others I've spoken to in disavowing violent rhetoric associated with a paper like this one and suggesting you can't claim to be peaceful unless you denounce it. So what does all of this tell us about the UK? I'm turning to someone who is a bit of an obsessive about the light paper for answers.
Speaker 3
Conspiracy theories are appealing in the sense that there is someone to blame, can identify not just general vague people, but specific people who are to blame for what's going on.
Speaker 1
And that's on the next episode of Radio 4's Mariana in Conspiracyland.
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